4.26.2006

Fisticuffs (verbal) over Islam or Bigotry?

Over on the Front Porch there is a "Potty for Allah" post which prompted two fiesty responses (copied below)

Now ya'll, when topics heat up, that is BACK Porch fare, since the FRONT Porch is for "lighter fare" with a more amiable subject matter. So, I've moved this lil' chat back heah for additional exploration. Iffin' ya'll want to read the original salvo, slip on around to the Front Porch and click the link to come back heah and join the fray.

Now, heah, chickens, is what the first testy respondent said (in Italics) , interpsersed with my own reply preceded by these heah dots.....

Ardlair said:

This remains a most depressing place.

I come seeking some spiritual insight from a practising christian and find the same claptrap each time.

.....Fair enough, Ardlair. I've mended mah ways, sugar, and the FRONT will be reserved for the aforementioned lighter, uplifitin' communal sorta exchange.

or whether you visit the front or back porch, in this house of an alleged man of god, you find only intolerance, prejudice, stereotyping, bigotry.....and all the other things that accompany religious fanatacism.

... Well, now, puddin' what is intolerant about mah remarks? or bigoted? You are not suggstin' that any negative assesment of a system of belief is bigoted or streotypical now are ya? Cause iffin' that's yore position, youse caught redhanded in yore own definition since youse always sterotypin' Christians. Now think a moment--if Islam's dogma is in fact pernicious, then sayin' so isn't bigoted or predjudiced a'tall; it's jes' saying the truth however unwelcome it is to think about.

So, rather than throw epithets at ole' Aunty Belle, impugning her sterlin' character (smile), why doan you simply respond to the points made, iffin' you can --an' don't drag out "muslims I have known" but let's keep it to what Islam teaches/preaches. Thas' the point, honey, What do it teach its adherents? How do those teachings assimilate in democracies? Do they teach sompin' that is necessarily a threat to yore own freedoms? If Scotland is suddenly subject to shari'a law, is this OK wif ya? This heah argument ain't about me, ya' see? It's about the points made--reply to those, refute them, add to them -whatever youse moved to do.

I travel and work frequently in the Middle East, Africa, and the Far East. Places where Muslims abound. I suspect you may have never seen your state line.

Have ya' darlin? Well, thas' wonderful. I'm thrilled for ya. But it doan answer the points.

As for mah travels and experiences--now whose bigoted? Iffin' I am a pore ole 'cracker lady who ain't never been further than the General Store in the County Seat, do that matter a'tall to the points made? Address the points, and doan duck 'em by tryin' to sterotype the point maker.
What would ya ' want, anyway? Youse wouldn't be suggestin' that only a lady whose traveled widely, curtsies to the Queen, chats up diplomats, or speaks to foreign parliaments is qualified to point out the obvious about what the Qu'ran teaches, would ya? Naw...you'd reject anybody no matter how quaified, iffin' what they said upset yore wishful world.

And I've seen more poverty, ignorance and brutality on a day in Detroit than a month in Muscat.

.....and that signifies what, precisely, in relation to the teaching of the Qu'ran?

Here's the thang, sugar, we doan know what yore brutes in Motown believe--and they's could very well be Muslims since DE-troit is whar the highest number of muslims live in the USA--but they could be atheists, Christians, eco-terrorists from a Gaia gathering, drug crazed pitiful street urchins, who knows? But it doan matter UNLESS what they believe taught them to be brutes, and keeps 'em in poverty, and ignorance.

So frankly Aunty Belle, to use an old christian term, you are talking through a rather large hole in your arse.

Now, now, sweet potato, don't get so riled up that youse forgettin' the manners yore mama taught ya'. Oh, this is wearying--this heah is another one of them attacks on the person rather than address the points. Why are you so fearful of the points? Youse cain't say such a thang 'bout ole Aunty B lessen you can back it up--or leastways, not iffin' you want to maintain a modicum of credibilty.

But that I guess is the joy of free speech.
You need to get out more.
On a leash.............but out more.

Well, gracious chile', iffin you'd send me a ticket to come over and visit ya on yer Loch and a git a peek at yore ghost, and have dinner with that fake pearl woman youse ooglin' ...why then I COULD get out a bit more. Mercy, all that mile high club you been trying to get into means youse flying enough to spare some those FF miles for ole Aunty Belle heah. Now, about that leash, honey, you ever seen that cartoon of the little portly man dragged behind his bounding wolfhound?

THE OTHER reponse on "A Potty for Allah" that deserves a reply is from Bird:

but i think you are applying a very bizarre interpretation of the koran - and you do apply your interpretation across the board. you give the repeated imnpression that this religion is all one thing - evil, bad, wrong. icould certainly say the same about christianity if i chose to look at only one side. lokkat the bible- slavery, incest, the horrible way women are treated - the wretched story where the father offers up his daughters to appease a crowd in order to protect a priest - all with the seeming ok of the lord. what the hell kind of religion is that? buti know that the bible isnot to betaken LITERALLLY. and i suspect the koran is not to be taken literally either.

...Bird Beauty, no, I doan think it is bizarre interpretation of the Qu'ran. How so? I have the Qu'ran and am reading it. It is not my interpretation of it that I refer to, but what it actually says. I doan mean to give the impression that the religion of Islam is "all one thing-evil bad wrong", since there are a few-(few is operative word) good ideas there--but the major thrust of this religion is forceful world conquest that is both religious and political, since in the Islamic state the religion is the determiner of state policy. (no separation of church and state)

Now think on this: where are the voices of Muslims calling for their brother Muslims to cease their horrors? Where are the muslim charities toward the families of those their fanatical brothers have killed in the name of Allah? Where is a Muslim leader that has publicly and forcefully denounced the terrorism of the "fanatical" Muslims because those terorrists have besmirched the Qu'ran with their violent perverted brutality? Why no outcry about baby boys of five years old being strapped wif bombs or totin' guns? What leader has spoken againt this?

As for the bible, no honey, youse cain't say the same about it--let me gently suggest you read it for yoreself, Bird. They's real bad thangs in the bible as you say--incest and abuse of women, but it is recorded as examples of evil and is forbidden. God does not condone any of that stuff...slaves are given freedom after 7 years, and this is more of an indentured servent than our modern understanding of slavery. All debts are cancelled and land retuned to owners (who mortgaged it) every 49 years (jubilee year). There are women heroines too, Judith whacks off the head of a vicious oppressor of her people, the prostitute Rahab is spared for her willingness to assist the Jews, Deborah leads the flaccid men into a battle they feared and inspired them with her valor. And while some of the bible is not meant literally (parables for instance) some of it IS literal. Just like we have poetry, metaphor, fiction and historical descriptions, etc. so does the bible.

jesus was called a bum, a thief, a rabble rouser - so who is calling muhammed a thief and why? and is that the only side to the story?

I am. I'm callin' Mohammed a thief and pedophile and vicious, ambitious opportunist. Why? Because that is the testimony of his own words and actions as well as Islamic historians--now, fer shur they interpret his doin's as OK cause they's sanctioned by Allah, which makes Allah a monster. Plain history records that he robbed caravans before the first "revelation" form Allah. He "marries" and 8 year old child?!! He butchered Meccans who refused to convert. C'mon, Bird. He promised "70 virgins" in heaven to his warriors in order to insure that poor ignorant oppressed boys will provide a steady supply of crazed warriors---ghoulish.

when followers of islam practice what they're taught - the world views them as criminals - that's somewhat what you said. how can you so blithely condemm an entire religion and the people who practice it? though i keep bumping into sites and articles with despairing words about islam and muslims, i also find articles and sites that are encouraging.

I can condemn most seriously, with due deliberation, not blithely. Because, sugar, they have earned that condemnation by virtue of their DOGMA -- that deserves this condemnation, and by definition followers are equally at fault. Their religion teaches hatred, violence and plunder. How can you defend Islam that so mistreats women and children? I have now read seven books on Islam, two by Arabs. One by a Western liberal. They do not disagree on history or the teachings, but in some places on the "applications" of a islamic teaching in modern times.

At times mah work done put me in the postion of having Islamic allies on crucial issues. We have sometimes exchanged ideas with deep respect for each other as individual persons, but even then they admitted that once our temporary alliance was effective that, according to the Qu'ran, my Christian beliefs required them to oppose mah infidel life iffin' I did not convert. Please read deeply about Islam before you climb out on a limb and defend this evil belief. Many of these Muslims doan believe much any more in their Qu'ran, but they jobs and very life depend on their public profession of it ...so they are cowed into submission. Can you imagine, Bird, if your own lapsed state meant the Hounds of Revenge were loosed on yer hide??

although i do not state it as directly as adlair - he has voiced some of my feelings quite eloquently.

Well, chile' Ole Aunty Belle is not aimin' to offend you, but truth has it's own claim on us all. What youse most upset about is that mah comments are an affront to your dearly held belief that all folks if approached jes' right, all people of whatever persuasion, are really OK and deserving of our respect. They ain't.

Plain truth is that they ain't. Looky, think of this: Naziism was not ALL bad, mah goodness, it taught that a person should work hard to keep in shape and physically fit--good idea, nothing violent about that, right? Except that the reason was so you could physically overpower your "enemy". Were all Naziis bad? Mostly so...some dull witted folks were too easily persuaded, but the point is that Naziism is by its teachings a vicious system of philosophy, and it wasn't possible to be a moral or good person and be a Nazi if youse following its precepts. Mutually EXclusive. The same is true of Islam. The precepts are evil.

Last thang: what you believe determines your attitude toward this heah world and its inhabitants. It structures yore thought. So when a weak Christian screws up and does something wrong according to the teachings of the bible and the Church, he /she feels remorse and wants to make ammends and move toward correcting her fault on account of violating the teaching they believe to be true and right and good. The weakness is not the teaching, the failure is not the teaching. The teaching is good but the poor practice of the teaching is a personal fault of the believer. So a bad behavin' Christian is a weak soul in need of reform, but that's for a failure to follow the teaching--Yet in Islam the very teaching impells a dreadful attitude toward others one deems to be 'infidels." Thus the "faithful" acts of Islam are a prescription for evil.




33 comments:

Simon said...

In the Bible is says Jesus slept with whores - is that your idea of good behaviour?

ardlair said...

Yawn.

One of the features of the bigot is obstinacy.

I therefore enter this with absolutely no doubt whatsoever that there is not a hope in hell that you will ever acknowledge that anything that you profess might just be wrong.

But, to keep you happy………………..

a) Of course I don’t think all Christians are prejudiced or bigoted. But just as some Muslims are evil, so too are some Christians evil, and others prejudiced and bigoted. It is not the religion per se that is the problem but the people who profess to practice the religion. And if the views you express on these pages truly represent your views, then you are prejudiced and bigoted. A Christian no doubt, but a prejudiced and bigoted one. And if I read your version of the word of god correctly, that means you are also a hypocrite.

b) Islam teaches its adherents many things. Many good. Not all evil. Anyone who absolutely believes that every single thing about any religion is unequivocally evil or wrong or bad, automatically identifies themselves as either naïve, ignorant or bigoted.

c) I think you do, deep down, understand my point about the state line. That is evident from the bitterness in your response. The more people you meet, places you see, stories you hear, the greater diversity of experience, opinion and understanding you might achieve. Not always. But it helps. And many many people do achieve a balanced sensible view despite never having “crossed a state line”. Of course they do. It is only those who hold unflinchingly to some dogma, presented to them on a plate, usually by a preacher or a politician, that stops them thinking, that can’t develop a balanced view. And it seems from what you write that you only have ears and eyes for your own point of view. You are probably therefore a dogma victim. Either that or you don’t get out much. If you don’t – maybe you can’t help that. I agree that those that do are privileged.

d) The political face of Islam in many parts of the world at present has been shaped as much by the West and “Christianity” as it has been by the actual teachings of that religion. Think about it.

e) You ask me to answer your specific points….I assume the point of the potty for allah post is …………….what? That prisoners should lose their right to practice their religion or worship when they are imprisoned? Or that only Muslim prisoners lose their rights? Sort of Guantanamo Bay for all?

f) I shouldn’t really have to educate about your own country but I read with interest that the US Supreme Court recently upheld the rights for witches, yes witches, to practice their religion when in prison. The link is at the bottom of the page. It would seem to me that the view of a truly god fearing, god loving person would be to uphold the right to worship whoever you please whenever they please. Even in prison. First amendment?


I like discussion. I like debate. Hearing what other people think.
But not when it is constantly, repetitively, immutably, crap.
Defined by blind faith.
Without any reason.
So I’m sorry to resort to insult, but, you deserve it.
And if you think my tone is patronising, you are right.
If you act like a child, you get treated like one.

Hope that’s all OK for the Back Porch!!

TTFN!

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/prisonreligion.htm

K9 said...

/bark bark bark

looks like we're on that round robin of projection again ardlair! what was that you told me? if you say it about another it is really a definition of you?

you came here looking for:

".... some spiritual insight from a practising christian and find the same claptrap each time."

doubt it. you could just have "susan" write whatever you wanted to read.

i am amused at the wholesale write off you've given aunty belle! no hope? there's some rocking generosity of spirit. and to be so absolute in your correctness.

here's the thing from the dog's perspective: we can find bad people of every ilk and faith. that really isnt the point. funde-islam, as it is currently organized in guerilla warfare against the west and her allies, has stated, quite clearly their intentions. restore the caliphate. Osama bin laden has written down their objectives and have made plain they intend to actualize them.

what do they hate about us? read the letter.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

you will find a list of egregious crimes from their point of view: all that left leaning libs hold dear. when these very people defend the behavior of islam as it is practiced by our opponents in the WOT, they are indeed useful idiots, helping them so that what they lack in amour and technology they will make up for with the divide and conquer routine. they mock the ones that support them as traitors to their nation. they dont respect your tolerance. they might use it, benefit from it, do business with it, pay lip service to it. but respect it? not likely.

and should these guys ever succeed in their mission they will not see a difference between you or aunty belle.

travel and experience in the short lifetime of one bench does not trump the whole of history. what is the best predictor of future behavior? the past.

the koran does tell its followers to make jihad, convert the world. the bible forbids it. so when christian evils are done, it is going against the faith. not so for islam.

you may recall from the bible this: "if they wont hear you shake the dust from your feet and move on to the next town"...nothing about killing infidel unbelievers.

isn't it interesting the evolved, crutch free anti christians are so unpleasant and intolerant of this faith, but afford every latitude to any other dogma ya got?

and in order for that tolerance and evolution to be worn like a fashion statement, the appologists who refuse to RESPECT our enemies enough to take them at their word so they can look non-judgmental and hip, again 'evolved".... will have set in motion a situation that will have the generations to follow us curse our weaknesses.

western people have been indoctrinated into a devastating self loathing spiral of never making a value judgment against anything because of whatever their own sins might be. it's a kind of insanity. and it will be a prison of our own construction.

but not to worry. the whole thing will play out; one thing prevails and another does not. it is what it is. but i submit to you this: your opportunities for personal liberty are much greater in a political system based on judeo-christian ideals. there are many other bloggers, atheists, agnostics, count chocula worshipers who have the same recognition of what aunty is saying. the recognize how a faith is being applied in a way that is not in the best interests of the ideals that we take, for now, granted.

simon. nice school yard taunt. what's your point? people suck okay? its not new.

/grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

ardlair said...

Hey K9

Nice to see you can still drop them turds.
Glad it's on the old lady's porch.... I'm sure you'll stay behind to help her clear up!!

Have you ever wondered why your politicians want you to have enemies?

Why, as soon as the commies were done, you were on to the muslims?

Kinda unites you doesn't it?

Deflects attention from your own place. How it's run.

Justifies otherwise unjustifiable foreign policy.


A dog as a dogma victim.
Now that is cool !!!!!!

Aunty Belle said...

Howdy Simon--I sgur missed that part of the bible--whar does it say that honey?

Why Ardlair, youse found yore way back heah? Good to see ya.

But darlin'--answer the points and leave off critizing ole biddies for no good reason--it ain't bigoted to tell the truth. Poke a whole in the the points sugar pie---confine yoreself to the points: ISLAM teaches evil and to say so is not bigoted but accurate. The views I expressed may be true--you must stop knee-jerkin' and just fling out "Bigot!" wifout exmaining the point that Islam TEACHES hate. SHOW me honey, whar mah point is in error. If mah claim is objectively true then Youse the bigot, baby doll, by slammin' the person reather than adressin' the POINT. (hint: READ the Qu'ran)

ANd Ardy, you said: "Of course they do. It is only those who hold unflinchingly to some dogma, presented to them on a plate, usually by a preacher or a politician, that stops them thinking, that can’t develop a balanced view." And that's a pretty good description of your atheist attiude, sweetie.

As for rights to religion in prison--shur they have the right to practice their religion---but not to dictate the direction the loo faces.
As Bird notes sagely: Let em' sit sideways.

Now puddin' you resort to insult because youse got a poverty of precision in logic. Try debating points not persons, keep if factual and analytical and no insults will be necessary, lessen' youse jes' get a kick out that sorta thang. An example is that the "politcal face of Islam" is shaped by the teachings of the Qu'ran and the Immans, not Christianity, other than that Islam sees itself as opposed to ALL people not in the Dar-Islam, and "shape" themselves to that teaching. And no worries, honey, Aunty B doan take your tone to be patronizing a'tall, just pouty.

K9 said...

/bark bark bark

the enemies are defined by their actions. the fact that the politicans are ineffectual dolts is also a problem. noting that the house is on fire doesnt mean i didnt have to address the busted pipes as well.

im not nearly as invested as you are. your dig on me is as simplistic as calling aunty a bigot.
for an atheist you sure are comsumed with issues of God, no Christianity; railing and writing on it tirelessly. it has tremedous power over you cause you never shut up about it. and such passion. its amusing. dogma victim indeed. haunted like a ghost.

/grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Bird said...

oh!

this bird isn't prepared for this free-for-all!

it's been a beautiful day out here in the bay area - sun shining, california poppies, calla lilllies, hydrange bushes and acaias are singing, singing.

the sun is still golden at the end of the day, glowing behind the trees and the twilight is soft. peaceful.

yet, i am compelled to enter this fray - just a bit...

ok...K9 - you've stated the operative word - fundamentalists. fundamentalists of all stripes are dangerous. but aunty belle- you lump ALL muslims into that category.

i cannot address all your points right now - but let me just say this:

i have numerous muslim students. they are not terrorists, their religion is not evil, bad, corrupt, devoid of honor or knowledge.

i have colleagues who are muslim. they too are not terrorists, nor evil, corrupt, nor devoid of honor and knowledge.

"it is not my interpretation but what it says" you state about your views on the koran. oh goodness - but it is your interpretation. and what version are you reading? who has translated it?

surely you know that the hebrew version of the old testament is vastly different than the king james? and the king james from the american catholic version?

perhaps i am as blind as you - for i refuse, refuse, to lump all of any people into one category.

"the only good indian is a dead one.

"niggers are stupid and inferior and need looking after."


and about that slaves in the bible - they were just indentured servants - give me a break for crying out loud - a slave is a slave is a slave. oh, but they were treated well. they were still fucking slaves! i bet there were plenty of africans treated "well" on plantations - they were still slaves. and the life of an indentured servant is not the same as the life of free person!


oh heavens - now i am quite upset!!!! i go to watch the sun set and mellow out.

Aunty Belle said...

Lawdy K-9, youse pretty smart for a dawg! I'se hopin' you'd range on by heah--I been savin a big ole soup bone fer ya.

Tain't many pups that that gets that Islam most hates the moral floppiness of the liberal Western defenders of Islam. What a hoot. Thanks for that link--it about says it all, I guess.

An we'uns both noticed, didn't we, that Ardy ain't answering the point that he shur doan want to have Sharia law be is overlord in Loch-land....but he criticizes the USA ..uh huh, think how he'll whine and wail to be let in heah iffin Islam overuns the Isles.

Aunty Belle said...

Oh sweet Bird, doan despair honey. Please re-read cause I did in fact mention that there were muslims who did not facor the way Islam is expressed by the majority of Muslims--so it ain't quite accurate to say Aunty lumped them all together--I didn't, so take heart.

No, the Hebrew Old Testament is NOT "vastly different" from the King James version in content--in poetic expression perhaps --but not in content /teaching --that is misinformation sugar. Where'd you get that idea?

As for the Qu'ran there are differnt translations yes, but again, an accepted version (accepted by Muslims) is not significantly different in content...why doan you pick one up yoreself honey and jes' read it through to see what you think.

And I'm curious--have yore muslim students and associates vociferously denounced the terror perpetrated by their fellow muslims? Have they said that such actiivity DIShonors Allah? HAve they called for Islamic states to rein in the muslims terrorists by issuing a stinging condemnation and arresting them? Ask them if in the name of Allah they have demanded that Immans stop preaching hate against us. HAve they called for the end of muslim genocide against the southern Sudanese? How about yore associates decryin' the raging hatred spewin' from the president of Iran? They ashamed o' that? How come they doan denounce Islamic tyrants who oppress their people?

Ain't hearin' much from them, but maybe youse got some muslim websites or sompin' whar we'uns can read that good muslims have condemned Islamic terror againt other people. Or even condemned the use of babies as bomb carriers--waht do your students say about that?

Now, about that refusin' bidness--what do you say about Naziism? Was there a good nazi? I mean of course a nazi who was so by choice--could that person be "good" in your view?

About indentured servants/slaves
...I'm wif ya' there. No defense of the idea at all, and the bible does not say it is right, it does prohibit mistreatment of a person because of status.

I will note that in historical practice the indentured servant is analagous to a serf, not a slave --how often do you heah anybody bemoaning the institution of serfdom? Fact is, not all people at every moment of history could be self sustaining. They considered it the better part of fate to have a good family as "master".

Ain't sayin' it's the best thang, but we'uns ain't precise to judge other times by the opportunities available now in our times. Remember, text out of context equals pretext. The economic systems of ancient world are not like our era, and an indentured servants considered themselves better off that a nomad with nothing...so doan be so quick, honey, to judge the practices of servanthood by today's experiences.

How was that sunset, sweet jewel of the air?

CJ said...

Hear, hear, Aunty Belle! I enjoy your wit and wisdom immensely. Thank you for being an example of courage and faith. Its refreshing. Keep on! If you listen close you may just hear the applause of heaven as well. For the record, my opinion about the "Potty for Allah" is that its disgusting. They are PRISONERS for crying out loud!!! 'Nuff said.

Aunty Belle said...

Howdy do CJ, so please to have you visit the BAck Porch--how did you find us over heah?

I appreciate yore encouraging comments. Youse cordially invited to stop by heah whenever you gets a moment.

ardlair said...

Hey!!!

Looks like we're getting a bit of atmosphere going here!!

But sorry to spoil it ..cos.........guess what!!

I've been born again!!

I had a road to damascus experience today!!
I saw the light!!

I am now one of you!!

And, thank the lord, I see what you are talking about.

Those muslims...........................jeez......oops can't say that any more.............well they's an evil no good bunch.

I had my first visit to a church.
We sang a great song!!!

"Jesus loves me this I know,
Let's nuke Mecca,
Way to go!!"

Then I went to confession.
That was brilliant!!!!!!

I told the guy on the other side of the grilly thing every single thing that I had ever done wrong in my entire life. ( Including dissing you and K9 last night which was real bad)

Guess what he said!!
Say 50 hail mary's ( learnin it right now) and light a candle and I would be OK!!!!!!

The lord would forgive me!!

He said I wouldn't burn in hell, despite my ignorant evil past!!!

Jeez ...oops........I see what you guys are on about .....this religion thing is sooooooooooperb!! Should have got into it a few years ago.

Hope I can keep it up!!

K9 said...

/bark bark bark

we now know that sanctimony is not a domain inhabited only by the faithful. ardliar might have been amusing if he hadnt so studiously avoided the content of this post, instead laying contently in his own repetitive borefest of shyt.

/grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

ardlair said...

keep it comin' K9 ah'm havin' myself a real good time!!!

lovvvvvvvvve that self righteous twang doggy man, love it!!!

infinitesimal said...

Oh CHRIST!

This is exhausting to read through. I did not even read the original post yet.

But here is my 2 cents, since I been invited.

Belle!
Who are you trying to claim to be? The Dali Lama? Unless you have known a practasing muslim family, and have been taught by a qualified instructor, you cannot know how muslims are.
Abe had 2 sons...one started the Jews the other started the Arabs. Mohammed had a hottie for a wife named Kadija, she told him how to write a book to build up his empire.
The holy Koran was ghost written by a smart chick.

Bird!
Religion and a deep sense of spirituality are two entirely difgfernt concepts.
The preacher who teaches and then sucks little boy cock after hours on Sunday is RELIGIOUS
The stinky pee-pee smelly guy who asks you for money and blesses you if you ignore him is spiritual.
The individual who stops to chat about the spirit with him before handing over the spare cash is DEEPLY SPIRITUAL.
and
the old testement was written by 9 foot tall alien beings from Nibiru. First carved onto stone tablets in cuniform in ancient Summeria, and recently documented by Zecheria Sitchen. (check it out)

The new testement was written by Jesus, and his crew, and then edited and revamped and reedited and so forth over the years by various churches.

So you really can only pay attention to the words of the man who claimed to be the son of God if you want anything spiritual. but that is my opinion, some people find life on every page.

Ardlair:
A LOT of Christians are evil. That is the nature of evil. Evil is a lie. So evil people are liars. Evil Christians are lying to themselves.
But the nice ones seem to remember that "blessed are the meek thing". They really stick to that, so you may have a harder time noticing them. Also, they are made fun of regularly now, as a result of the antics and direct actions of their evil peers. So a lot of em are embarrassed now, to come out of the God closet and speak to it openly.

But I like to recognize spirituality in whatever form it manifests. Any form of spiritual devotion is better than being an evil shit, and I believe all four of us can agree on that?

infinitesimal said...

Ok, just read the comments... whew!
Belle, you got a spicy site! No boring "Well put!, HEAR HEAR!!" comments for you. You want to evoke a debate. that's cool.

PS ARDLAIR:

Catholics take pennance, not christians.
Jesus (the founder of ChristCorp.) was super pissed to find that money was changed in temples.

After his death, the dudes in the pointy hats (you get a pointy hat in religion if you claim to speak with God)
The pointy hats offered God's forgivness to poor dolts in exchange for about the equivilant of 200 bucks.
They promised that it was the only way that God would forgive them. ( a thousand hail Marys)
An evil lie...and it started 1,990 years ago...approx.
so if you are gonna get converted in your mind, don't confuse christians with catholics.
as these are catholic friends we have here, it is obvious that there is truth in spiritual quest, no matter what the brand name.
ChristCorp. is a conglomerate.

Christians used to SERIOUSLY piss me off too (on to the projecton thing) until I came to an understanding of what christianity meant to me. AS I have said before, it is a deeply personal journey.

But I was always mad before, and now i have tolerance for blindness, and sleeping people who follow dogma. They are, at least, trying...

Life is less anxious for me this way, so i continue to roll with it. it makes me happy.

Bird said...

infini
agreed - religion and spirituality are different - i think AB is talking about religion when she lumps muslims all together - I am talking about spirituality when i speak of my students and colleagues.

quite frankly, i think organized religion has some serious drawbacks - because inevitably, when people start organizing their spirituality, they seem to almost inevitably worship the god of dogma, rather than the spirit. i believe this to be true of all organized religious systems, though i do not believe that all members of a religious organization necessarily blindly follow the dogma of their church/temple, etc.

you didn't really mean to write that the new testatment was written by jesus, did you? he was dead before it was written. regardless, religious texts are written by men, not gods, nor sons of gods. the bible, as you say, has been revised through years, and codified (the church surpressed those parts of the gospels which didn't benefit their agenda).

AB: i said nothing about nazis.

must i hunt through my bookcases? i have read a treatise on the nuanced changes in translations which actually do indeed mean quite a bit - words count. stories change. hebrew words have multiple meanings.greek words shift too.more than just poetics. poetry is precision.

i am thinking in partiular of delicately crafted translation of the old testament i have - painstakingly translated to remain true to the spirt of a ancient hebrew text. and there are big differences in the creation story. the "breath" means something different there is none of this bullshit of eve being made to serve adam. and the serpent isn't quite so evil. a distinct difference. where did you get the idea that "poetics" didn't make a difference in meaning - connotation?

tell me something AB, have you voiciferously denounced your fellow christians who have bombed women's health clinics, assualted and murdered doctors?

what do my muslim students and colleagues have to do with the president of iran? they are not iranian citizens. most of them are US citizens. and i do not require my students to make denouncments to be in my class. and yes, of course, when my colleagues and i discuss current events and touch on these topics - they are not happy with the state of affairs. what a silly question AB.

Aunty Belle said...

Contessa mah pet!! Whar ya been sweetie?

Looky, we CAN discuss Christianity, (including Catholicism) but this post started out on Islam--and aint't funny how nobody wants to really look at that. It ain't Christians or Hindus or Falung Gong (sp? )or any other belief that is running over the world threatening innocent millions in European cities and the US...all I can say is ya'll must be in denial --or afraid to actuially look at ISLAM.

COntessa, the misunderstanding you have about Christian history and teachings will take a whole other post,sugar, but the reality of Islam , how its teachings have always brought conquest and subjugation, can be discussed withour slidin' off into a discussion of any other faiths.

In all seriousness, pets, Aunty is most concerned that there appears to be fear of looking at the relationship between the Qu'ran and the violence and subjugation that characterizes Islam---

Ya'll please note, this is not about the "intolerance" or the "bigoty" of Aunty or any other poster---I ain't but let's pretend I was bigoted toward Islam. So what?

It doan change anything about Islam--it ain't why trains in spain and England were bombed, or the trade towers or the genocide in Sudan or the oppresison of Islamic women or the use of liitle children and bomb cariers--why ya'll won't deal wif that reality?

I think it is fear--fear that you cain't do anything about it, fear
that if ya'll admit Islam is problematical, it turns yore idea that a "tolerant" philosophy of accomodatin' all sorts of worldviews will bring about world peace is is crushed under the truth that IISlam teaches and fosters pure hatred that is translated into evil acts.

Ya'll carry on...I gotta go make some fresh lemonade for the Front Porch.

Aunty Belle said...

Ooops--didn't see ya' there Bird Beuty, afore I tried to go stir us up sompin' fresh on the Front Porch...
so to your comments Bird:

About religion /spirituality--looky, sprituality not anchored to a specific teaching is not much more than a warm fuzzy feeling --as Dorothy Sayers said, if all you want is a warm feeling, jes' tinkle down your leg.

WHAT are you feelin' "spiritual" about? I know folks who think a bubble bath with aromatherapy candles beside the tub is a great "spiritual" moment. Some say, they's "spiritual" when their "inner" self is at peace with the exterior ...ok, well,ok. But for me--I am bored by me,inner and outer, and I am dang shur that an infinite God is infinately more intriguing that I am. And He was specific about how we worship Him--so iffin' may intent is to honor God, not my own silly fragile self, then I oughta do it the way He
showed me to do it.

Bird, Nope--you didn't say anythang about the Nazi's --but I hoped you would--mah point was that "lumping" people has its place. Can you say that there were good nazis? THis is mah parallel, that the SYSTEM of philosphy and belief that the Qu'ran demands is the problem,just as nazism's philosphy was the problem
--and BOTH systems twisted and bent its adherents when they practice nazism or Islam faiithfully.

Note that this is different from Christianity or others in that evil Christians aren't faithful to the teachings they profess--so that is huge distinction--it is precisely faithful Muslims who act on their "truth" who do hideous thangs.

To sum up the idea, can you think of such a thang as "good nazi" ? Probably not--the SYSTEM of that belief is evil. So is Islam. Saying so is not bigoted, jes' accurate, if unpleasant.

Bird, with all dues respect, yore own bias is what drives you to seek out "painstakingly" trannsllated versions of the Old Testament-unless you are a Hebrew, Aramaic scholar you would have NO clue whether or not the "painstaking" interpretation of the Creation story was accurate or not. If it is of the ilk of an Elaine Pagels it is from the hand of a plagerist and a fraud--even liberal scholars have noted she cheats in her work--out of context quotes, dropping letters to change the tenses of words, etc. So--caveat emptor, all translations are not accurate--intellectual honesty demands that those who reject the meaning of the text as personally objectionable do so on that grounds--not weasle around and try to twist the text into their own "story."

Jesus did not write the gospels, his followers and their followers did--and the CHurch did indeed discard the counterfeit "gospels" (Gospel of Mary, Gospel of THomas, Gospel of Judas etc.) All old papryus ain't anymore important than old papyrus accounting records--old doan make it true.

Here's the thang, sweetie, from the early Christian perpective any so called "gospel" that was not true to what Jesus said and did SHOULD have been discarded as an shoddy attempt to hijack what was KNOWN to be so by Jesus' followers. It ain't that the CHurch "supressed" anything at all, since the others were free to circulate those spruious gospels, it's jes' that Christians knew them as fakes, or heretical. Keep in mind, now, that if there were fraudulent versions of the Ammendments to the Constitution we would be vigilant against them.

Yep, darlin' I have denounced (as it happens in print) those who kill abortionists. So has every known credible Christians leader. Now--what about your msulim associates? Ain't seen a wholesale denouncement of the mass murders perpetrated by Islam.

You say, "what do my muslim students and colleagues have to do with the president of iran? they are not iranian citizens. most of them are US citizens."

So? The very point is that they stay quiet when an nternational leader of the muslim world murders in the name of Allah--does this not affend them" If not for the sake of the American ciitizenship, are not thhey at least offended for the use of Allah as justification for such insanity?

And you say: "of course, when my colleagues and i discuss current events and touch on these topics - they are not happy with the state of affairs." Really? Well they express it very soto voce--why aren;t they saying so publicly and why aren't they demanding that their immans and leaders denounce it in their name? C'mon, honey--it is jes' too easy for them to tell other Americans how they deplore it , but they do nothing at all to adresss it while innocents die and muslims the world over threaten more violence---we are not talking about a few unhinged muslims--we are talking millions. Press THEM--your collegaues-- the way you would a Christian over the blogwaves, chile.

ardlair said...

Somehow Bird, something simple you have said has concerned me!

I have never thought that Aunty Belle was anything other than a man.

If, as you suggest, she actually is a woman, then I fear even more for the future. Somehow, the expression of blind hatred from a woman seems even worse if it comes from a man.

But that's just me being old fashioned I guess!!

Islamic terrorists do not represent the Islamic faith.
Just as IRA terrorists did not represent the catholic faith.

Agressive political regimes defying the international community - I could be talking about the US and global warming there, but am actually meaning Iran and nuclear development - do not represent the Islamic faith.

They - governments and terrorists - use a religion to their own ends. Giving people a shared sense of purpose stronger than defence of their country ; something to fight for. Motivating the poor and the ignorant. And easily identifying a target group or an enemy..... Jews sometimes, Muslims now in the west. It is politically expedient.

Christian governments do this.
Islamic governments do this.
When we really get into trouble is when a people identify their nationhood with a religion, any religion - and believe that all those who live within a line on a map, that we call a country, are God's chosen people. And the others are scum.

So America has two things to fear.

The rise of Islamic fundamentalism.

The rise of right wing Christian fundamentalism within it's own borders, perhaps as expressed through the voices of men/women like Aunty Belle, who see no good in any heart that is not a christian one. And presumably will therefore vote for any expansionist or opressive foreign act that her governement proposes if it is dressed up as "defending the faith."

So Aunty Belle.

Is Islam fundamentally an evil religion?
I think that seems to be what you want to talk about.

No.

But people who use religion for their own ends, or interpret it for their own purposes, are.

And finally, religions were created by men.
Not by gods.
Because gods don't exist.

And for as long as people like you think that one god wrote one book that is the one way to live a life, then we have difficult times ahead.

And if we can't agree on that..............we can't agree on that.

Aunty Belle said...

Ardlair, you said:

"Is Islam fundamentally an evil religion?
I think that seems to be what you want to talk about.
No."

And that opinion of yours is based on what precisely?

THis heah folks is what I'm driving at--that the Western mind is the inheritor of the greek philosophical and the Chrisitian moral systems...among the more important tenets of both is that there is an inherent dignity in all/any man. Islam does not teach this. AND they think we are idiots to believe such.

For my money, too many of ya'll are imputing to ISlam yore OWN best ideals--they don't share em' wif ya, pets. Doan be imputin' to them what you love (tolerance, equality) cause they think such is WEAKNESS.

Sumation: yore view of islam Ardy is
predicated on what you want it to be so that it doan cause you no discomfort to ponder. But it ain't reality, and it is the reality that we'uns will face, not wishfull thinking.

infinitesimal said...

Bird:
Right, Jesus spoke, and years later people wrote it down.

Belle:
The Annunaki. that's all i am gonna say. look it up.

The Koran is a business manual.

I am so totally over this crap, i am going back to my spot where things are nice and wait for a slathering mooslem with his knife in his teeth to slit my throat because I am American.

I imagine we had better back that Patriot Act and Defense spending and all the other anti-terror laws too. Especially the real ID: that will track us everywhere, doing everything. We gotta be safe...
Cause THEY's commin' to git us? right Aunt?
It is just to keep us safe.

THEY NOT EVEN HOOMAN
They Mooslem
God don' want em'
right Belle?

come holler at me when you have a new debate up, K?

Aunty Belle said...

Naw naw, Tessa' youse know Aunty Belle ain't favoring no ID, no trackin' of humans--and shur honey, GOd loves Muslims too--loves every human being ever --but that doan mean he approves of what they teach.

Ya'll keep wanting to make this a battle of muslims/christians--it aint that.

Looky Dawg said it plain, that when evil is done by Christians that is a VIOLATION of Chrisitian teachin', but when muslins to they evil killing they do it in the name of Allah and think they will be rewarded in heaven with 70 virgins--see? WHen they do evil, they are following their teachings...when Christians do evil they are VIOLATING teachings--please doan send no more yakkity yak about
all religions stuff--they ain't all the same--they teach different ideaas , some ideas --like naziism--is deadly evil from the git-go and corrupts all who follow it.

I'm wif ya' Contessa of the Tulips
--over this heah exchange--come to the front porch for a new post theah.

Bird said...

oh hells bells....you post - i post - therefore we engage in discussion of ideas, which allows me to question you and you to question me. i am not always engaged in this kind of debate with my students, nor with my colleagues. i don't run about peppering everyone on their religious or political views, or their thoughts on terrorism, etc.

unless the content of my course involves iran, terrorism, etc., i do not query and provoke my students on such topics. and how insulting would be it be for me to say - hey, when was the last time you denounced such and such? context - aunty belle- context is everything.

however, last summer, my reading class read Funny in Farsi (the memoir of Firoozeh Dumas, whose family moved from Iran to the US before the Iranian Revolution and the Iran Hostage Crisis - it is a light, accessbile, humorous read, though it lends itself well as a jumping-off point for some deeper discussion). Students researched the Iranian Revoluton and the Iran Hostage Crisis. In their research, students noted that the US had encouraged Saddam Hussein to attack Iran and sold him chemicals to do so. We discussed that. students discussed the reasons, the causes that led to the overthrow of the shah and we discussed the totalitarian (sp)ideas of Iran and we also discussed the human face of the people there (many of whom do not wish to live under that regime). One student, who was of Iranian background, spoke up - concerned that summer over the course of events - concerned for family members still in Iran. We had many discussions about the Iraq War as well (since their research led them to some it) and about 9/11. and Muslim students in my class were very outspoken and concerned -they decryed the terrorism and the way their religion had been hijacked by fundamentalists. they do not support terrorist actions in the name of their religion.

regardless, they are not the enemy and should not be treated as such.

these discussion came about because they naturally arose out of the context of the class - not because i queried and accosted, demanded my students speak on the issue.

but the underlying assumption of your demand that i question such students is that they are terrorists, or supporters of terrorist - or again, that the religion supports terrorism. you ask me to question them, challenge them out of context and that smacks of accusation. which reveals your assumption -islam=terrorism.

i suggest you get to know some muslims. might do you some good.

now, about this business of god instructing us how to worship -

poppycock! MEN instructed other men how to worship. men write holy writ, not god. men interpret holy writ, not god.

whether god exists is up to each individual- a matter of FAITH. such a belief cannot be prescriptive, though many try to make it so - and it seems to me you try to make it so -which in my opinion lumps you right in with fundatmentalists. if i were to think as you think, iwould then extend that - hmmm....islam extremists are both fundamentalist and terorrists and adhere to a moral system that is low. thus, since i view AB as a fundamentalist, she too must be a terrorist and adhere to an inferior moral view of the world.

goodness!

but again, although religious structure and believes may be prescriptive, spiritual ones are not.

how each person who believes in god seeks that god, develops a relationship with god - is each individual's decision. it may well be that if i sit and gaze at a candle while burning chamomile that i am better able to "commune" with god. history shows us that in many cultures, the trappings of ritual are what assist many in communicating with god, or whatever you want to call it.

so - if i worship differently than you - am i doing it wrong - because MY GOD surely isn't your god and i can bet i worship quite differently than you.

i am not speaking of elaine pagels.i will dig the darn book off the bookcase at some point and give you the pub info - but not now (it's buried three rows of books deep).

but your easy dismissal of the reading of carefully researched and thoughtfully translated material is hysterical. go ahead - dismiss all but those with whom you agree.

while i can concede that yes, there is danger in islamic fundamentlism and that iran is a dangerous nation (of course, you know,we are too - we have our own agenda), you seem incapable of seeing the world through more than one lens.

again, i suggest you get to know some Muslims. you might be surprised between the differences of what you read and interpret and who many of them truly are.

but i am at an end with this debate. there is not even a chance of convincing you to consider a different point of view - so debate is useless at this point. i will withdraw and wait for another topic or occassion in which we can discuss again - without bashing each other's heads in (figuratively speaking, of course).

Bird said...

i forgot to say - enjoyed the fisticuffs and hope you have a lovely weekend. the sun is shining here - at least - spring in california - bright orange poppies all over the place!

Aunty Belle said...

Aw, Bird, beautiful thang, doan peck mah eyes out.

--youse upset over what ain't so--youse urgin' me to "meet some mulsims" when I done already said in other posts that I have worked wif 'em at the international level, made common cause wif em' at key points to achieve shared goals, then when we'se friends, no kiddin, one picks up the crucifix offa my jacket and says "If you come to my country we'd kill you for wearing this."

I do know and have worked wif muslims, their diplomats, professors and translators--mah thoughts in these posts ain't shootin' in the dark.

As for yore studnets readin' about Iran and USA in 70s wif the shah etc...uh huh, yep. Politics is inexact to be polite and a bloody disgustin' to be truthful.

---all the same, jes' answer this:
Which attitude do you want to live under, the prevaling American dominance on the world stage, or Islam?

See? My thought is that the PERFECT is the enemy of the not-so-bad. 'Cause the USA ain't near to perfect youse thinkin' it is equally bad as other systems? Not even close honey chile, not remotely. We both know you or even Ardy doan wanna live in no muslim nation. That's where rubber meets road.

As for the spirituality thang--it cain't be done in justice on the tail end of this ragged out post. Let's agree to look at it again, OK?

Thrilled you have fine weather--did read Kite Runner, and it is set in yore areas--have a fine fine weekend. (ya' knows I love ya?)

Bird said...

thought i was at end with this, but not so.

1) - Ihave never stated that because our system in the US (or western culture) is not perfect, that it is equally as bad as others.there is a continium.
2. you give me a choice - american dominance or islamic dominance. i'll take the devil i know best currently, however, i would prefer a third choice - and that is the my country get it's head out of its butt and act with integrity. we don't do that. not often enough.

yeah, we ain't perfect, but we flaunt ourselves as if we are, and because we are the biggest, baddest bully on the block , and because we have extraordinary privileges - we have extraordinary responsibilities -to which we do not live up.

Aunty Belle said...

Bird Beauty!!
Well now, can you believe it? I think we's agreein' on yer last message. Naw naw, USA ain't perfect, but it is better'n Islam, and we ought to do better --no quarrel wif dat. (This heah qualifies for a minor miracle status)

S. S.A said...

ag shame all the theories and an confusion and lies and deception. FATHER GOD thank you for aunty bell, i pray that HOLY SPIRIT will give her the words to say to all the hungry out there. thank you thay your favour surrounds her like a sheild and for the sword that cuts deep into the very core of every heart, you GOD are the great I AM. and in you we live and move and have our being. Thank you lord that we have been translated out of darkness into your light and that NO WEAPON FORMED AGAINST US SHALL PROSPER, ALL THOSE WHO RISE UP AGAINST US SHALL FALL. THANK YOU FATHER THat your son JESUS shed his blood to dethrone satan and give us back our authority. YOU MY WONDERFUL I LOVE YOU AND WORSHIP YOU HOLY NAME. all in JESUS MIGHTY NAME. AMEN AL you folks can ramble on about all this until the end of days, but in the end. EVERY KNEE WILL BOW , EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS THAT JESUS THE CHRIST IS LORD OF ALL....................

maccusgermanis said...

On evil muslims. I think all would do well to separate the muslim from what they are loathe to separate themselves. Atheists based on their own understanding of the Bible will unblinkingly charge a Christian with hypocrasy. To do this they must keep separate, for comparison, the observable acts of a Christian from their own interpretation of the written Bible. I urge that if islam is to be given the same repect as other religions, then it must be treated in this same critical manner. Knowing that many muslims are good people, deeply offended by critique of islam is not enough. To what do they lend their implicit support when they defend islam in general? Read the koran to find out.

Of, course there are good muslims, that is largely the premise of the Anti-islamic web site of faithfreedom.org

fatty ~ said...

without taking sides, i'd just like to say that when it comes to arguments about faith and religions

no one is ever represented fairly. Christians are going to think like Christians, atheists will think like atheists, and Muslims hardly ever get a say. No one is going to be right. Never.

Slinging insults, opinions and accusation will end up in a pile of shit and nothing more.

The term 'jihad' simply means struggle. Many Muslims regard it as a spiritual struggle within a person, others regard it as a fight for Islam's spread.

Aunty Belle said...

Fatty, I'se wif ya--no need to sling insults or opinions--the very reason WHY Aunty Belle wants ya'll to read the Qu'ran and to look at the history and current actiivity of Islam--

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