1.11.2008

Terror from the Heart of Islam : One Turkish Man's View




Of interest to our discussion is
this December 2007 report by Turkish National, Zafer Senocak, 46, who has lived in Berlin since the 1970s. The article (in German) appeared in a popular German paper.

[ note: text in RED is Aunty Belle's own emphasis]


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Terror Comes from the Heart of Islam

You will not find the true face of Islam at the German Conference on Islam. You find it in countries like Pakistan. This Islam turns against all who don't live by the rules of the Koran - against democrats, against atheists and above all, against women. And the world watches in paralysis.



Koran and violence: Do they belong together?

Even if most Muslims do not admit it, terror belongs to the core dogma of Islam, it comes directly from the Koran. It turns against all who do not live and act according to the rules of the Koran, that is democrats, western inspired thinkers and scientists, against agnostics and atheists. And above all, it is directed directly against women. Islam is a tool in the hands of male traditionalists who strive with all might to prevent women from attaining equal rights and to free themselves from the yoke of the centuries.

[The true Islam, like you find it in countries like Pakistan], has started a world war. But the world behaves as if it knows nothing about it. Modern people are aware some conflict exists far away in the "back yards of Turkey". Unfortunately, in our modern networked world there is no "far away backyards" any more. There is only our "front door", and that's the place where things happen. The totalitarian intent of the Taliban and the terror cells is probably worse than that of fascism, it is not the result of a civilizing process. It exists in an environment where even the memory of civilized progress has ceased to exist.

This should be the call of those Muslims who see more in their religion than a blueprint for barbarism: To oppose the ghouls in their own rank and file, determined and with the necessary harshness. But alas, when they do it, if ever, it is only half spirited. Islam has nothing to do with terror, maintains the Turkish prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Other politicians scramble over each other to compose the most convincing condolence messages after each act of terror. Outright grotesque is the situation in Saudi Arabia. The kingdom trembles before the terrorists who it itself has created.

Muslims all over the world find themselves on the test bench. They pay for the neglect of previous generations. The spiritual decline and the inability to communicate with the modern world has led to the deplorable present situation. The times call for a coordinated effort from all people of reason. Islamic terror has spread to the whole world. The opposition is only half hearted, slow, and reluctant to a concentrated effort. To reach results, the common sense of the common people would have to go against the blind hatred of the fanatics. The opposite happens, the hatred is more and more being adopted by the masses. Still worse, many illegitimate despots ally themselves with the hatred to secure their throne. To make the situation worse, Muslims engage more and more in theological rhetorics. The vital question, how their religion can be made to sustain the development of a modern civilization, is largely avoided.

The free world is paralyzed

This behavior of the Muslims has certainly psychological reasons. People feel inferior compared to the west, humiliated and betrayed. But the political consequences of this psychosis are terrible. It plays into the hands of those who fan the flames of terrorism in order to create chaos in the Muslim world. It plays into the hand of those who see an interest in terrorism, and it prevents the establishment of democratic systems and judicial processes. Poverty and corruption find optimal conditions to grow in the Islamic world, an evil circle. This evil circle must be broken with the help of the free world and with military power, because nothing else has any effect! Those who fight in Afghanistan cannot pretend that nothing is wrong in Pakistan. The murder of Benazir Bhutto was preprogrammed. The fall of the Gaza strip to the Hamas terrorists was also foreseeable.

But the free world watches paralyzed. There was a lot of scorn in Europe over the American policy in Iraq. When it comes to criticism, nobody can beat the Europeans. Own ideas and political concepts are however scarce. The European policies towards the Muslim terror lacks power and resolve. Some countries want to negotiate, with Hamas, with the Taliban. Nuclear reactors for Gaddafi, roll out the red carpet for the Saudi king! In the end, the petrodollar rules. The west does not understand how deeply it hurts itself and betrays its own values. The Islamic terrorists go from one victory to the next. Benazir Bhutto will not be the last victim of the failed appeasement policy towards radical Islam.

Translated and edited by Wiking

29 comments:

The Troll said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Infinitesimal said...

belle,

did you ever post on exactly where in the koran is the core of violence pestilence and dispair for all infidels?


Also, has anyone looked into what is the beef they have with the west?

the author does mention a spiritual decline over here.

goddammitt is every other word on television now along with ass, bitch and shit. After 10pm on cable they run unedited movies with nudity (brief) and the F-bomb gets dropped, sometimes 8 times in one minute!

it actually seems impossible to lead a quiet muslim lifestyle while still embracing western values and norms.

so, our lifestyle is in direct opposition to their lifestyles

(notwithstanding the women's rights issues as irrelevant to this particular branch of the discussion)

All i am saying here, is try to be aware of what is pissing everybody off over there.

Auntie, can you write up a list of gripes, beef or socially irritating things that islamic activists are offering up as reason for their distain towards us all?

The Troll said...

The author is a brave man. Let's hope his wife and children aren't murdered in retribution by people inspired by the Columbine lib-punks!

Grrrrrrherhahahahahahahahahaha!!

boneman said...

I should change my name from boneman to day-late...

How was it asked? Why don't I pay attention to what you are writing? (let's just call it paraphrased, eh)

I have some answers for a previous post that should answer as well my own feelings about mob rulings (being just sixty miles southwest of Marion, Indiana...I Know about mobs)
The thing is, I think it was infinitesmal who found and conversed with a Muslim gal from Asia, and her report was way different than what you are writing here.
All of your minions and some of your friends came back behind you backing your original premise, but, gosh, that was a lie, was it not?
Sufism is what swept most of Asia into believing Islam, and it is everybit as respectful of key points (helping others, giving to charities, leaving revenge to the CREATOR, etc., etc.) as our own Bible.
Now for more bad news....
What are you REALLY up about? Is this some form of membership drive for the Catholic Church? Because, as it turns out, there are more Muslims than Catholics in the world. Only 16% are Shiites. Just barely more than that are Sunnis. The leading population in Islam are the Sufis, who with their intense respect for ALLAH have, for the most part, completely split from the radical sects running amok in the world.
How does that come back to MY answer?
Because my Bible says to forgive my enemies, help others, take care of the earth, and in ALL cases north of the Old Testament but south of Paul, the main idea is NOT to spread hatred, but rather to help peace get a grip on mankind.

Your rants are pointed at a pitiful few thousand followers of a moron.
Lordy! That would be like me being pist at Reagan just because he armed, trained, and paid bin laden. (Betcha a dollar he'de like to have not done THAT, what with having to answer up at "home" now.)

It doesn't pay any sense to go ranting after something that will (or at least, shouldn't ) happen.
Your agenda sounds more like the internment camps in this country during WW2, holding, starving, and torturing the Japanese for no good reason.

And for sure, you are not holding the Spirit in your heart when you spit out such nonsense.


If you're interested, I found the "I hope our enemy loves their children" song and have posted it with what is a true EVIL....though the music may be short lived as Mr. Sting hasn't returned word to me yet about having it publically displayed.
(I'de suggest, if you want to hear it, do it sooner than later, because if he comes and sez desist, away I WILL go. I have the greatest respect for everybody's art, and would make it vanish at his request)

The Troll said...

I think we're going to have to establish a new rule. No "Bone Facts". I.E., something stated by Bone as a FACT that is not, according to any credible source, in FACT a FACT.

As just one of MANY examples, note that he says the Sunni are "just barely" more than 16% of the total muslib population.

In fact, every credible source holds that followers of the Sunni side are 70-80% of all muslibs REGARDLESS of whether some of them also have some interest in or allegiance to Sufi teachings.

Can't wait for Bone to provide the Source for his "just barely more" comment on Sunnis.

Should be hilarious. MoveOn.Org? pakistanfrontier.org? WeLieToStupidPeople.Net? GullibleLibsWhoBelieveAnything.Com?

Aunty Belle said...

Hey Contessa!! Whoa--relieved to see ya around--was worriet.

Sigh...Yep--I gave the suras that list the "core violence" youse looking for in Down in the Hollow (resources page--see link on Back Porch.) See first essay plus the resources page. (ain't ya been readin'???)

But there are warrants for internal violence as well--in the Muslim family: Sura 4:34 in the Quran permits husbands to hit their wives, for instance. (see resources page (Down in the Hollow), on the right is a link fer Domestic Violence in Islam--take a looky)

Looky folks--them violent suras is all over the net--doan have yor haid stuck in the sand. Jes' take a gander at:

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Now ain't that "peaceful"?

It should be noted, Fini, that all Muslim communities are not uniformly violent --much has been written of the distinctive calibre of violence in the Middle East (Arab, Persian, Paksitani etc.)vs. a milder Islamic culture in other parts of the East.

As fer the elements of Western, specifically American, culture that
so goads Islamic antipathy for us
(as seen in the previous post whar' Muslims called fer the beheadin' of Hollywood writers) I have a personal story.

Ya'll has read heah before that in Aunty's non-blog life (that fantasy life of mine on t'other side of this screen?) I'se in frequent contact professionally wif' Muslims--mostly male. One man tole Aunty he dested US culture because it turned daughters into Britany Spears.

Doan know about you folks, but I git that--I does. So, fer all them Americans (none of ya'll, of course) who wears immodest clothes, pepper yore speech if foul and crude words, live promiscuously
and drink more than you should, youse a major cause of Islamic violence (In their minds).

As one man explained to Aunty "If we accept democratic norms, our wives and daughters will look and act like the Hilton family. It is humiliating for my wives to work or to go out in public unattended. We Muslim men will never permit a culture to grow that women lead or children do not obey their father."

And more specifically, "The Christian West failed. It lost to the atheists and the blasphemers, the polluted prostitutes and homosexuals. Christianity is weak because toleration of such cancer in your midst is weak and Allah is strong. Islam must clean the earth of your filth."

Aunty would suggest that Islam fears human freedom, because humans too often use their freedoms unwisely. Thus those (Samuel Huntington of Harvard)who predict the "clash of Civilizations" is correct--the clash is coming --is heah.

There can be no happy live and let live between Islamic nations and the democratic nations of the world. Our ideal of democracy and freedom is the very fundamental threat they fear. They see freedom as a blight on the world and an affront to Allah. Islam cannot accommodate our existence and remain unchanged, thus the war /clash will have to be fought. Let us pray we fight it with education and persuasion, but if we permit ISlam to butcher millions more so we can prove how "tolerant" we are then we are hypocrites who throw the innocent to the monster in hopes the monster will be satiated--it won't.


There is another possibility: We in the democratic/Western law based cultures might return to an era of decency--if we do at least some Muslims will feel less threatened by the horror of our debauchery.

Aunty Belle said...

Boney...sigh...youse very mistaken, Sugar.

Aunty has hurt feelin's--cause this info is available to readers of the BACK Porch at Down in the Hollow--the Resource pages for these discussions--and in the glossary youse gonna see the demographic breakdown of Islam by Sunni, Shia, Sufi.

Somehow youse become really confused on some basic data. Ya' doan have to take Aunty's word fer it--check it yoreself:

The CIA Factbook give Sunni Islam the majority --about 75 % of the Muslims in the World, and other reliable demographers list Sunnis as 80 % of Islamic believers, with the Shia making up the remainder--with a very small portion of Islam identified as Sufi which is a subset of Sunni--and thought by most Muslims to be a form of heresy. (see globalsecurity.org for one source of figures)

Boney--Youse also mistaken on Islam compared to other religions:

Islam is not the world's largest religion, Christianity is. Islam is not bigger than Catholcism.

Islam constitutes 1.2 billion followers according to CAIR (CAIR (Council on American-Islamic relations--a pro-Islam organization) or about 22 % of the world's population and Christianity is 2.1 followers, about 33% of the world's population. Islam is growing faster (high birth rate and forced conversions)

As fer Catholicism, it is 1.2 billion--or the same as Islam, but since Catholicism is the largest in the Christian religion, the combined population of Christian believers is 33% of the world--and growing. Islam is 22%.


An interesting reality is that in Africa Catholicism is growing more rapidly than Islam, and in China both Catholicism and Evangelical Christianity is growing very quickly.

Boney, yore figures, whar'ever ya got them, are spurious--youse wrong on every single one ya listed--an' I fear it led ya to make some unkind assumptions about my motivations fer writin'.

An while we's airin' our differences as gently as possible, lemme jes' say that it is true that Infini "who found and conversed with a Muslim gal from Asia, and her report was way different than what you are writing here" ...

but why does ya take more weight from that than ya do Aunty's MULTIPLE experiences wif' Muslim OFFICIALS? Does ya see whar' I'se makin' a big point here fer ya Boney?

Aunty is not discountin' Infini's Muslim lady friend--but I IS sayin' that in mah professional life I deal wif Islamic professionals routinely--not jes' a chance encounter, but a working situation wif' Muslims from many different countries--lots of 'em.

I ain't writin' here jes' from sedentary research, puddin'--Aunty has years of first hand experience wif' Muslim representatives, scholars and high level wing-dings.

Now, I doan think it is productive nor courteous to git into a discussion of the motives of ANYBODY who comments here.

Everytime I see a comment addressed to the motive of the commenter, I knows that the person makin' a note of motives is doin' that to avoid dealing wif ISLAM itself. An' let's confine the topic to Islam--save the comparison wif' the bible to the third essay--this essa is not a comaprative topic, but is an examination of Islam--what it teaches, what it practices.

(Keep in mind that if every Christian was erased from the map tonight, that the rest of the world STILL has Islam to deal wif'--so deal wif Islam in this discussion--save yore yak on the bible to the third essay, please.)

Aunty Belle said...

TROLL-man, yes, that Turkish German fella is very very brave--an' the world needs more brave Muslims to speak up.

I'se been to Turkey--loved it thar! Had conversations wif various Turkish folks--they more than most have a sense of how to modernize wif'out completely gutting their religious traditions.

Guess ya saw how that fella who wrote the article emphasized the inferior feelings that modernity gave to most Muslims and that was the source of the anger they felt toward the west?

boneman said...

Indeed, my response was less than polite.
Part of the reason is letting my heart control my brain when responding quickly, as in, read then respond. Things always come out a little more controlled and polite when I take my time.
Another reason is your blocking team. Intersesting group you have there, gal. I attempted to rebuke the one with a seventeen page, to-the-point rebuke which has not been answered up to, and, of course, that's because he CAN'T answer up to it. Yet, you still open your arms and sing praises to him.

Hey, it's your friend. Far be it from me to upset the balance of love here, but it seems to me that one cannot preach Bible in one sentence then turn to evil in the next.

As for the reference material, well. You should know better than that.
First off, no, I didn't bring it with me, but, yes, I'll be more than happy to return with it next landing.
As for your method, though, it is what Andrew Jackson used (oh dang! I ain't sayin' that Auntie is acting like a Democrat, am I?) on the Creek and the Seminole peoples of the South. Picked them up without their properties and marched them west of the Mississippi in what would become known as the Trail of Tears.
So, it sounds like the methods haven't changed much in a lil more'n a hundred years.

Odd, though, that you would include so many into the church you attend when they are not welcome in your church really.
"into the hands of satan" so to speak.

You do realize that there are still Christians that take to the idea of an eye for an eye very strongly, don't you? Talk about oxymorons. That about takes the cake.

As for the less than polite retort I made, not to worry none. It won't happen again. My sincere apologies are offered.

she said...

aunty. why bother?

Infinitesimal said...

Sorry, I have NOT been reading, but this is done for my benefit at my request and I appreciate it. Let me finish setting up my new "homework nook" in preparation for the new semester in one week...

I promise to devour the down in the holler page.

It seems to me, that the predictions in the bible of 7 years of peace followed by the forced denial of Christ.

MY personal prediction is that the peace will begin with Prince William on the throne.

So I guess I will wait and see if I am right.

Auntie, do you think that the forced denial of Christ will be led by an Islamic front?

Infinitesimal said...

It seems to me, that the predictions in the bible of 7 years of peace followed by the forced denial of Christ......

......may be beginning to happen.


(sorry, fragmented sentence)

Aunty Belle said...

Boney, Darlin' Aunty lets grown folks take care of theyselves--mostly--so it is up to you iffin' ya wanna engage the blockin' team--long as we ain't crude it is OK to be adamant, or to challenge data and sources--and youse welcome to do the same. If ya have sources to buttress yore figures, then go ahead an' challenge my figures and sources.

Aunty Belle said...

Contessa--best o' luck wif yore homework nook---and when ya git a spell, please check the Hoolow fer some resources and data that
pertains here.

Doan know nuthin' about Willie on the throne, but guess it is a good a marker as any.

boneman said...

Y’know when you go visit a friend’s house, and it’s one of those places where there’s a “yapper” dog hiding behind the skirts of the lady of the house? You know, she’s nice, but everytime you sneeze, the lil “trolling bait” dog dashes out from behind those skirts and yaps and snarls and looks for an open ankle….
You’ve got a “yapper” and, for now, I’ll deal with it like I would at anyplace. I wait till I can STEP on it…not hard. Heck, these ol’ size 14s’ll kill a dog like that if I step on it directly….
Just a lil kick, or step on its paw or something.
I’ll just assume yer yapper is busy working the floor around us.

Straight up from the book....
“Islam succeeded in uniting an Arab world of separate tribes and castes, but disagreements concerning the succession of the prophet caused a division in Islam between two groups, Sunnis and Shiites. The Shiites rejected the first three successors to Muhammad as usurpers, claiming the fourth, Muhammad’s son-in-law Ali, as the rightful leader. The Sunnis (from the word TRADITION), the largest division of Islam (today more than 80% ) believe in the legitimacy of the first three successors. Among these, other sects arose (such as the conservative Wahhabi of Saudi Arabia), as well as different schools of theology.
[this is pretty much what you have down for us, right? Well, here's the rest of the story]
Another development within Islam, beginning around the eighth and ninth centuries, was Sufism, a form of mysticism. The movement was influential for many centuries and was instrumental in the spread of Islam in Asia and Africa.
Time Almanac 2000 ©1998, Time inc. Page 408.


(Can you understand that, troll, or do you need it to explained it to you? )
The movement
(that’s a group of folks following a single idea, in this case Sufi)
was influential
(because they PRACTICED what they preached, others followed them. Don’t think about this one too hard, because you won’t understand it)
for many centuries
(there’s a hundred years to a century, and a thousand years to the CREATOR’s one day)
and was instrumental
(the main cause, to be sure)
in the spread of Islam
(there is only one GOD)
in Asia and Africa.
(that would be the great big land mass just south of the Mediterranean Sea, and the land mass beyond Europe to the East. This pretty much makes the comment about “SOME have SOME interest” meaningless, because as usual, there’s NO reference material from you except what you find on the internet. Learn to read BOOKS, troll. It’s real, as opposed to your internet café crap.) (you DO realize there’s a reason no reputable colleges have internet grades, right?) And all the while claiming some immunity from MANNERS and PROPER COMMUNICATION SKILLS despite your contention of being a “Christian.” Wonder of wonders that you think changing spots to stripes is a good thing to do, though in the case of Flatus Rub, perhaps it IS the better choice, eh. I am more to the thought that fartful, as a name, would suffice better.)

You’ll note, Auntie, that there is no discrepancy (other than WHAT they believe in,) from your earlier Sunni/Shiite count. Interestingly, we both have stated a truth and yet they are not the same, eh.
Sufism is to Islam as the Trinity is to Christianity. Well, not quite, but I think it’s a close enough analogy. Without talk of the Trinity, Christianity may have remained fractured at a time when church leaders needed them to coalesce. The Islam being led by the fractured groups was clearly at a standstill until the mystics got a hold on it. Had Sufis not become the major influence of this religion, it may have well died out to extreme sects, nomads on the dessert of mankind.
But, again, it isn’t a matter of looking at the cold numbers here. Their belief system is not an easy thing to discern or understand….
(that’s learning and grasping the knowledge of it, troll)
… and could be matched with how some folks think Catholics pray to Mary. (yeah, I know, but, YOU’VE been using misperceptions here, so, it’s a valid point)
Well, THAT’S not right, folks shouldn’t pray to Mary. Can she intercede in place of Jesus? Blessing the WOMB!?!
And surely you don’t think they actually eat human flesh and drink human blood, do you?
That would be Cannibalism, and you know what they say about cannibals.
They’re fed up with people.
(Thank God they don’t eat clowns, though.
Yup.
They say that clowns taste funny)

I’ll let you in on a secret, though its value is low on the priority stick….
I didn’t learn about Catholic communions till about seven or eight years ago. And I dated a couple of Catholic gals. In my mind, bread was bread and wine was wine, and I spent my thinking power to consider why would he say “my body” and “my blood” and still mean this bread and this wine.
And, of course, even though it is a new religion to me (been a member there for about seventeen years (?) give or take) my church does communion every week of every month of every year. (I can almost see your eyes roll across the sky, “Oh THAT Christian Church! The Disciples of Christ WITH music! Why, Boney, thas just a passin’ fad”…. ) ‘Course, back in the late nineteenth century the gals at the church made a few changes and one of them was changing the wine to fruit juice. It didn’t matter so much because there are two other ways to go about the thinking…. One, that it’s just a ceremony we do at church and if you want wine, do it at home, and two, it was always GRAPE juice (they holler at’cha if you come back with Juicey Juice (some danged brand name) and make ya go back and get the GRAPE juice!) (trust me, I KNOW!)
But, the mysticism of the Sufi can be considered similar to the mysticism of YOUR communion, can’t it? Because you really eat the body of Jesus, you really drink the blood of Jesus……..( ? )

Now, dang. I love typing, but I am not that good at it, and here I am writing from a book with incredibly small print, all at your request, citing census numbers from mid-1996 and the differences are staggering.
STAGGERING!
No. They’re not staggering at all.
(None of them had too much to drink.)
I have here a count of 1.9 billion Christians, and that may sound a bit shy of your numbers because you had later material, but….and I stand by this…. you don’t claim them ALL to be Christians, do you? Gay Christians married in an Episcopal church is just “a bunch of misled children having their play date with the devil” isn’t it? (I think this may be paraphrased from an earlier comment from several moons back) “They’da never get married in a Catholic church!”
And, despite your insistence of how much more proper the Catholic church is ( I’m sorry, because the other day, I called it the Holy Catholic Church, and that isn’t right. It’s the Holy ROMAN Catholic Church, which has always made me wonder why we don’t call it the English United States. You know, with that Pontious Pilate fellow coming from Rome and all that) Anyway, I have news for you, there are some sects of Christians who feel you and your lot (me, too) are the very epitome of evil.
WE are what you are stating the Muslims to be. A couple examples are:
The Amish are real particular about how much evil they let slip into their midst while most folks from the US have gotten so used to lying that they think it’s normal.
(Isn’t that right, troll?)
I knew a Seventh Day Adventist (don’t call me on that spelling, I liked them, not their religion) couple, real nice folks, but, really took to suffering like a cat to tuna fish.
Tony Campolo’s set (American Baptists) probably wouldn’t want you to spend so much time on the computer machine, but, Southern Baptists, their distant cousins, REALLY don’t want you going to Disneyland, playing cards, or dancing.
Then there’s Jehovah’s witnesses, whose mission of being as the disciples were sounds noble enough, but their
‘scribes” are every bit as slanted towards a very few scriptures as most religions today.
(There’s more, but the “yapper’s” starting to snarl)

So, here’s the numbers I have and I’m sure they’re close enough for conversation :
Roman Catholics 981 million
Protestants 404 million
Orthodox 218 million
Anglicans 69 million
Other Christians 282 million
(Muslims 1.1 billion, but that ain’t right at all. There’s no way in tarnation you or anybody else could shove a bunch of Sunnis in the same room as a bunch of Shiites, UNLESS they were all strictly adhering to Sufism, so…)
Sunni 913 million
Shiite 187 million
Atheists and Non religious 1.1 billion
Hindus 793 million
Buddhists 325 million
Jews 13.8 million
Spiritists 10 million
(that last group is who we’re supposed to be tying to poles and stoning to death, that is, according to the old testament, because they are evil)(does yapper remember THAT one? C’mon over here, lil yapper’n give the toe a nibble. Wait till I draw back m’foot)
So, near as I can tell, despite minor differences in time, the populations are close enough for cigars all around.
Well, except I don’t smoke anymore. But heck, in a world like we live in now, who wants to say “close enough for hand grenades?”
I thought the saddest number I saw was the number left to Judaism, just barely twice those who died in the holocaust.

Now, I don’t have a whole lot of time at the computer, so, I dig up real books on the subjects from where ever I can get real books. It isn’t always easy, but, there may be slight discrepancies to exact numbers.

I don’t lie if I know better.
(that’s something YOU should try, troll…. Telling the truth even if it undermines your argument. “ALL humans make mistakes. And, all leaders are human.” Leto II, Children of Dune. The difference is how you handle what you’ve said or done wrong, not sticking with your abomination till the end, like Alia did)

I also find second opinions where I can,
and for sure, if I found anything in the CIA fact book, I would be asking myself “why did THEY want me to read this?”. You’re talking about a group of men who told Bush junior that there probably WERE NOT any WMDs in Iraq, and yet when the president said that there were, when the VP said there were, when they even coerced Powell into saying there were, they made NO public statement disputing the administrations inaccurate accounts. So that means what about their credibility?

Which reminds me… as for nuclear power being used by men of wisdom…

There are no such men.


Now, about the yapper.
You asked for civility once, and it went out and changed its name? And THAT makes it OK with you?
That doesn’t sound very civil at all. I’ll bet you don’t even let it out of the closet if the Pope comes over for tea.
And, considering that it thinks that the internet world is the real world, there’s a major problem with what it thinks is worthy of conversation. Do try to convince it to push away from the computer once and a while and go live some real life, won’t you? The lil thing is starting to make Daniel’s prophecy too real for my liking, to be sure.
Or, you could send it over to my place with an apology pasted on its mouth, and I’ll be just as happy, but, till then, well….
The best way to avoid a yapper with no manners is to avoid it altogether.

Aunty Belle said...

Boney...yore population figgers is close--but they's ten years out of date, and the current Catholic population is at 1.1 billion. But keep yore cigar. Close enough to show that there are double the Christians on earth compared to Muslims. Islam is thus, not the largest religion.

As fer Catholics and other demoninations, sects or splinter groupps--the analogy is the same in Islam to Wahabbi, Sufi,Sunni, Shia etc etc....if you credit Islam wif' the ageregate form to arrive at the final count, ya have to do the same for Christianity.

I do not see the connection youse aimin' at comparin' suffisim wif' the Trinity. The trinity is taught in the Scripture as a theological principle. The way youse describin' Suffism it is a political arrangement to mollify a dispute and permit a form of Islamic unity.
I ain't able to grasp that.

(That ain't what suffism is fer, though. It is born from the realization that the teachin's of ISlam lacked a spiritual element, lacked a mystical, soul shapin' inspiration...so suffism is the synthesis--or better yet, the accretion of a more ancient Middle Eastern mysticism within upstart Islam. The 19th cent Russian mathematician and mystical guru, Gurdjeiff became a Sufi, noting it was derived from the Altai of the Russian Steppes--no hard evidence of that, however.)

As to calling all Christians "christian" sure I do--the fact that some (most?) doan make a good practice of it, doan mean they ain't believin' it is true--the spirit is willin' but, ah, the flshe is weak...Christianity is HARD to live. All Muslims is also not practicin' faithfully- so that's a wash.

YOU WROTE:

"But, the mysticism of the Sufi can be considered similar to the mysticism of YOUR communion, can’t it? Because you really eat the body of Jesus, you really drink the blood of Jesus……..( ? ) "

Nope. Sufi mysticism has zip to do wif' communion.

Yep. I does REALLY (not mystically, not symbolically) eat the Body and Blood of Jesus. Re-read the John 6.
But the teachings of Christianity is not the topic of this essay--that is in essay three.

I commend ya fer gettin' a hold of real books!! (My preference too)

Aunty Belle said...

She:

I'se workin' out mah time in Purgatory on this blog.

The Troll said...

I didn't attempt to read Bone's rambling incoherent post. Did he attempt to prove his "The Sunni are just barely more than 16% of muslibs" nonsense?

If so, I've got to repeat She's "Why Bother?" question.

Life is short and some people enjoy wallowing in their ignorance and really can't grasp the concept of FACTS.

she said...

your patience and generosity is a marvel.

she said...

"are" a marvel, i suppose.

she said...

you loved turkey because attaturk forced the country into modernity, and look at the result. but now we see some back sliding. another attaturk would be most welcome.

Anonymous said...

http://dutchdaily.blogspot.com/2008/01/you-are-foreigners-here.html

Aunty Belle said...

Troll-man, well, I was wonderin' iffin' Boney transposed the Sunni wif' the Shia?

Sunni is the majority (80 % as ya noted)), then Shia then Sufi, but in truth Sufi is a branch of Sunni. The heretical branch accordin' to most Sunni folks.

She-pup, yep, Turkey is in trouble, youse right on that--sigh.

Anon, dear heavens--read that link and it chills the blood. Thanky fer the link.

boneman said...

Dang! It’s like when y’storm out of a room, only to find you left your car keys there and you have to go back.
And, here I am, with egg on my face….

“Only 16% are Shiites. Just barely more than that are Sunnis.”

Sure enough, that is what I wrote, but, this isn’t right.
It isn’t that it’s wrong, but rather, it is incomplete.

I was attempting to walk and chew gum at the same time….
As I’ve mentioned, I don’t have very much time to read and what seems even less time to write.
But, I was attempting to break down the Shiite/Sunni groups in various countries. I was doing it from memory, typing as fast as I could, consider what had been written already in the comments(from a prior post) and compose the comment as I went.
In some countries, Sunnis outnumber Shiites, but not always. I believe Iran has an abundance of Shiites, and yet, also a greater want from the younger folks of leaving behind strict religion and not being forced to adhere to ancient dogma. In a fair amount of Indonesian countries, Sunnis far outnumber Shiites, and, as I understand it, are less strict about the dogma, also. But, if you’re Shiite it is actually dangerous to announce one’s true beliefs publicly.
But in ALL cases, where adherence to a Sufism ideal was prevalent, so too were the most amiable and friendly of Muslim populations. That’s what I’m understanding from the various sources, including Infini, a Pakistani I knew (Amer Lukmani), my own book on Islam, and the history book.

None-the-less, being inaccurate and being a liar are two different things entirely.

The Troll said...
I think we're going to have to establish a new rule. No "Bone Facts". I.E., something stated by Bone as a FACT that is not, according to any credible source, in FACT a FACT.

As just one of MANY examples, note that he says the Sunni are "just barely" more than 16% of the total muslib population.

Well, yes. I blew it, as I explained at the opening, but, have the good manners to not use some damned rap label to call them or anybody else's religion.
Dad was Methodist, Ma was Lutheran, you don't ever hear me say Mackeral snappers, although, in your case troll, jackass might suffice as well. Maybe just go to church isn't the right thing to do. LEARN from the place!

where are the “other” examples? Even tossing in the adjectives wasn’t actually wrong.
Aunties agenda of what to do with Muslims sounded very much to the internment camps I spoke of in the US, was it not? Except for shipping them off to China.
(“Nice touch.” Baron Harkonen, The Children of Dune.)

Auntie, do you really feel the SPIRIT is in your heart when you say such things? Is it so very Christian to kill, maim, destroy other human beings?

Reagan did arm, train, and give monetary support to bin laden, did he not? His defense being that he was battling the Russians, making them go broke from their attempts to conquer a place almost unconquerable is one of the main reasons the deficit was in HARD red ink…. He didn’t even get to see the fruits of his labor. The Soviet Union did break down momentarily, but no brain power for the first attempt at the towers, and dead for the second. But wrong all along for helping a bastard like laden. (rules for cursing are still in effect for me. It’s only that this actually seems a better name for him.) What call from the CIA fact book on the laden group while we were handing him guns, ammo, and rockets?

But, to be sure, I wouldn’t want to hurt your feelings. So, I came back to offer my apologies for the incompleteness of my comment, and I didn’t want to just e-mail it, either.
but, as for artful, or troll, or whatever he’s calling himself this week or next, he’s wrong.
And THAT’S a fact!
But, he has your blessings, and for that, I’ll read the posts because I know these are some hard work for you.
You have inside information that gives it all a unique perspective, even though I feel your universalizing the concept to Islam is in itself incorrect. I mean, analogy-wise, even though unified in a single country, all chinese, all 1 plus billion of them, don't speak the same language, don't eat the same foods, don't believe the same things.
The comments?
I’ll leave you with your yes-men, trolling bait and anon...
I’ll be a whole lot less trouble that way.


(and think of all the room you’ll save in the comment boxes !)

Aunty Belle said...

Boney,ah, darlin'...

Ya note Aunty gave ya the benefit of the doubt? That is, I mentioned I thought you had transposed the stats on Sunni/ Shia percentages.

Plainly ya cannot take the Sunni/ Shia percentages fer ONE nation and conflate that to ALL of Islam--that is a rather large statistical error.

I accept you redaction and apology.

But what worries me most is that ya made charges against mah (and others) *motives* based on what ya thought was true, but turns out not to be true now that ya's investigated the matter.

This is one reason why it be so unwise to address personalities rather than topic. You tried to swipe at me as feelin' a need to compete fer numbers to bolster Catholicism. How silly is that?

Iffin' ya doan like the facts, ya digress by swipng at the *motives* person who brought ya the facts ya doan like? Ya notice Aunty doan impute motives to anybody?

How could I possibly know yore motives fer a what I deem is a lethal pacifism? I ain't seen no place in history whar' supine spines saved lives in the face of a militant horde. Name me one.

Iffin' Troll said that yore facts was flat wrong--he made a strong statement, but an accurate statement--yore data was in error.

I git that ya did not *intend* to communicate an error, but youse pretty emphatic that youse right and we was wrong on facts--turns out that you now apologize (Accepted!!)fer yore error in data, but but I doan think ya oughta retain aggravation wif' anybody who took yore data to task.

Fer the record, Troll ain't got no more blessin's round heah than anybody else. Youse accused him of not listening in church--how does ya know? Is yore comment any less hurtful to him than his comments was to you? Ya'll seem evenly matched to me in tradin' barbs.

See--Aunty ain't gonna play referee
no more. I done ast EVERbody to keep the comments to the TOPIC. Now ya see why--

I'se tempted to delete comments that violate this request, but others git upset and email me behind scenes when they come heah an' find deleted comments--they worry I'se censoring ideas--I ain't, but will censor foul/crude language.

Point: Have the courtesy all of ya'll to address the *topic* not the commenter's personality.

When the next essay goes up thar's gonna be more than the usual visitors. Aunty wants to have a discussion from many perspectives--but on TOPIC not on the personalities of the perspective holders.

boneman said...

yes mam

Anonymous said...

As a lurker and knowing none of you I can see that Miss Infinitesimal and Mr. Boneman never did speak to the report by the Turkish man that drew me to this blog in the first place.

The Troll said...

Looks like Bone finally conceded his numbers were way off. That's good. I'm still curious where he got them in the first place.

Something I see as a major endemic problem in most of the most muslib world and a growing problems amongst Western leftists is this:

The former largely don't HAVE access to factual authoritative sources. The latter REFUSE to access factual authoritative sources.

Your German/Turk writer addressed that issue in the longer version of his piece.

she said...

i am glad to see we are back on topic.
i an wondering how "actual books" have more authority than news dispatches from the "front" so to speak, from the many bloggers in europe who report daily on the increasing balkanization of their countries by virtue of the tension islam presents.

aunty has been charged at times with being a dinosaur (primarily for her correct, IMHO, dismissal of wiki as a source), yet when she draws from reports issued in real time, or her actual encounters on her foreign writing gigs, those are less evidentiary than vanilles one muslim girl.

what has happened in western culture is a wave of self loathing that has resulted in misplaced compassion. the leadership of islam has stated their goals quite clearly. to show true respect would be to take them at their word. but to many, the way they define themselves (as tolerant, loving, generous, etc.) is the greatest religion of all; make no mistake about it. Political correctness, moral relativism, and pure secularism IS religion.

a curious contradiction: why is it that the courtesy and benefit of the doubt that is so often extended to islam, is rarely extended to fellow american citizen's whos great crime is to wander off the PC thought reservation?

all the looking back at "crimes of christianity" has absolutely zero relevance to THIS particular discussion ...i believe those charges can be addressed in the next post.

why do i get the feeling aunty is writing somebodys term paper? grrrrrherhahahahaha