Tony Blair reports that the whole "rebellion" is orchestrated by the Muslim Brotherhood and other Jihadi cohorts.
Obama thinks that "the people" have risen up to demand democracy, an' the American response is to support "the people" an' throw out the dictator by pressurin' the Egyptian Army to sack their president. What precedent do ya' think that sets? Or, are we aiding a gen-yoo-wine people's reform?
Chris Matthews is "embarrassed" that Obama ain't supportin' our friend Mubarak (an' the tingle Chris gits now is fear of Muslim Brotherhood --who is likely the killers of Sadat). "Where is the State Department?" yeah, they missed the signs of uproar in Egypt completely--can ya believe EVEN Matthews now sees that Sec. State Clinton is asleep at the wheel??
BTW, this clip from Mornin' Joe shows an unlikely confluence: Pat Buchanan and Chris Matthews on the same side of the issue--now thas' gotta be some sorta first, doan it?
( Mornin' Joe makes a good point--what will other US allies in Middle East think --Jordan, Saudi Arabia--if we turn our back on Mubarak.)
Some think Mubarak has been a stabilizing force in the Middle East --Aunty fer one thinks he has at least tied to stop genital mutilation which is a fundamentalist Islamic practice against girls in Egypt--in 2007 Mubarak prohibited this barbarous outrage...but the people still practice it.Alert: Doan read if youse squeamish:
[Writing on the web site IslamOnline, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi - the president of the International Association of Muslim Scholars - explains:
The most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet's hadiths - even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic. It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: "Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands."That is not a Muslim view (the practice is rare in Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Pakistan), but an Egyptian Muslim view. In the most fundamental matters, President and Mrs Mubarak are incomparably more enlightened than the Egyptian public. Three-quarters of acts of genital mutilation in Egypt are executed by physicians. ]
But, Mubarak? --the man ain't no Prince Charmin' --brutality is hardly unknown in his regime.
European leaders is frantic to show themselves on the side of "the people" too--or, is it they want to insure that whoever emerges as Mubarak is sent packin' looks kindly on the Eurozone, an keeps the Suez open? Lest oil reach 400 bucks a barrel?
Spengler, an investment banker writing in the Asia Times thinks we's missin' part of the puzzle when we fail to note that Egypt imports more wheat than any nation, an wheat done doubled in price in the last year--in short, the poor are hungry an' the middle class Egyptians is fearful of economic collapse. World food prices are risin' faster than most nations can cope--is Egypt the canary in the famine mine?
Aunty wonders if the Suez closes, an oil goes to the moon--what does ya think wheat will do? Russia had a drought, her wheat production is off 33%! US production is "down" but still the third highest on record, though 2011 acres in production wuz due to decline--bet'cha wheat acres will now increase--mayhap "wheat fer oil" will be the bargain we make in 2011.Robert Spencer traces Obama's pro-Muslim appointments an' policies.
What I'se wonderin': What can we'uns--"the people" really believe about what we learn via media kingpins or via the web/ social media etc.?
In short--what do ya' think the real story is in Egypt? What's really at stake?
What do it mean fer US Middle East policy a year from now?
20 comments:
I truly could not care less what Pitchfork Pat Buchanan, Tingly-Leg Matthews, Mornin Jerkoff Joe, or Tony Wrong-Again Blair have to say on the topic.
Yes, I know some people think Pitchfork Pat and Jerkoff Joe are "conservatives".
Call me a "flaming lib" if it puts me on the opposite side of those idiots.
As for the Obamanation, I'd say he is more Anti-Christian than he is Pro-Muslim. And yes, he and the democrat party made this situation (and the entire world) worse than it otherwise would have been.
As for Mubarak, the old tight-rope walker always acted in his OWN interest as he saw it. This idea that he was "ally" of the USA and did our bidding is ludicrous.
There WERE times, of course, where HIS interests coincided with the USA Foreign Policy thrust-of-the-moment. Including times (Carter, Clinton, Obama) where OUR Foreign Policy was STUPID.
All-in-all, he was a pretty skillful tightrope-walker and one of the more effective and least-oppressive tyrants in the region.
Whatever follows him, will be worse. Whether it's MUCH worse and whether it negatively effects the USA really depends on the Obamanation to a large extent.
If he gets 4 more years, it will be catastrophically worse.
You know Aunty, I really have no idea what's truly at stake, I've read so many different opinions and I worry the same thing; what's to believe?
Here's what I do think/know:
I wish there was a clear leader of the opposition.... someone strong who could possibly lead a new Eqypt... but with a country steeped in Muslim culture which at times is horribly barbaric, can there really be change?
Everything and everyone seems to have "the people" as the main priority, but I've read behind the scenes there is a lot of jockeying for influence. With the US giving over a billion dollars a year to the Egyptian army along with aiding in the training of their army, how can we really be neutral? We're sitting on the fence, refusing to even use Mubarak's name while calling for Democracy. It seems very false. It seems stupid.
This morning, I read food prices (not just wheat) have skyrocketed because many of the commodities are open for speculation and Wall Street has turned it's greedy eyes towards the world food supply which could have long term negative effects to Egypt.
I just don't know. I look into the faces of those young protestors and I wonder what kind of life they have and what kind of life they think they'll have by ousting the current Government. I'd like to be hopeful, but....... when you have religion and government so deeply enmeshed... it's hard to achieve real change.
Good post and I'll be back to read more comments.
The real story in Egypt is that "the people" are miserable. Unfortunately, they do not understand the cause of their misery, only that it exists. And, in not understanding the cause, will of course make the classic mistake of effecting a putsch rather than a true revolution. Which I predict will mean Muslim rule for Egypt before the year is out, bad things for those who wish to hang on to their extremeties, and a huge headache for those of us in the free world.
Male circumcision is barbaric and based on religious beliefs too and I don't understand why that continues to go on either, especially right here in America. There is no point to it.
I don't know that much about Egypt or the extent of our involvement with them. But I do know I don't want the US to get embroiled in helping another country become a democracy. I wish we'd just mind our own business and get our own kids educated like they are in India and Asia, get a healthier nation of people like they are in Germany and Sweden and get our jobs back from overseas and back to manufacturing our own goods. Maybe I"m oversimplifying things..... but can we get our act together first, for once? I'm tired of being part of a sick, diseased, overweight, undereducated, frightened and hysterical nation.
Whatever is coming next will be worse. like moi said, the people dont fully understand why they are suffering - just like a lot of americans dont. the set up now is you have leadership that cares less and less about nations - and more about corporations. some people make out like bandits regardless of who gets in...and to Trolls point, will often look the other way on what a dictator does if it serves their interests. re: china state dinner and uber schmooze.
I think its interesting how when W talked about democracy in the ME he was ripped and now, its all so possible with O at the helm. I dont know what the outcome will be -but in general -im pessimistic. surprise! grrrrrrheahaha
Things that worry me:
How "moderate" ME states (Jordan, Turkey) will adjust their internal plannin' based on USA kick to Mubarak
How feckless the US foreign policy apparatus is--an how transparent to all the world--do ya think this invites mischief? Gee, if the US never even saw this uprisin' comin', what could a Russia or China sneak past the gate?
who ( and why) would be an ally of US under the Obaffoon? Sorry, but it IS a globalized world an' everybody has an ally or two--even North Korea has China.
will the Suez stay open?
@ Troll
I fear the O is more Muslim than nothin' if only fer the novelty of it. Thar's a long list of pro-mulim actions, tho it may have been done as a conciliatory move.
I'se hearin' ya on the haids--Buchanan ain't conservative, jes' a curmudgeon.
@Boxer
great point: there needs to be a clear leader. Worry is that the Muslim Brotherhood will rush into the vacuum.
Ya know--sometimes I think all this stuff is staged. Think like a mystery novelist--how would ya fool the folks? Does it seem likely that SOMEbody somewhar' knows exactly who will be at the helm in the next few weeks?
REMEMBER when Mubarak was pronounced dead on CBS last year by some yak head? After Mubarak's gallbladder surgery in Germany? C'mon--everybody KNOWs there would be no more Mubarak after his current term was up--a few months...so why the rush for a change, change was comin' anyway. Is this an internal struggle to preempt the s passing of the power to Gamal (son?) or to preempt for a military installed government? The "street" said last spring that Omar Sulieman , the head of Egyptian intelligence wuz expectin' to wear the shoes.
@ Moi
hate to say so, but, fear that youse right: it means Muslim rule will return to Egypt. Muslim Brotherhood done asked Hamas in Gaxa to lay low , keep haids down while this unfolds. MB is onliest organized ready to roll, leader-prepared visible group that "the people" see.
@ La Diva C
male circumcision at least offers the fig leaf (!) that it is a medical/ hygienic precaution. The real difference of course is that the purpose of FGM is to forestall arousal. It is not typical of Arab nations, particular to Egypt.
An heck yes! Let's git our own selves together afore we go off to show others anythang!
@ Chickory.
Uh-huh. All the same thangs W said an CNN had apoplexy? Now when O pushes same song CNN swoons. Gimme a BC powder, puhleeeze.
Ahhhh, so Aunty, women are not allowed to enjoy sex or orgasms like men are? I had forgotten about that little part of the equation.
The male circumcision medical/hygiene angle is B.S. and started for religious reasons by the Jews and Muslims. This of course leads to the argument: "If God created us, why did he make men with foreskins?" We are "made" just the way we should "be."
From Medicine. Net: "In 1975, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) stated in no uncertain terms that "there is no absolute medical indication for routine circumcision of the newborn." In 1983, the AAP and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) restated this position. In 1999 and again in 2005, the AAP again restated this position of equivocation."
I agree with you 100% female circumcision should be banned and is barbaric but let's do the same for male babies too and finally get past our archaic views of cleanliness and hygiene!
La Diva
LOL lol! well....I did mention the medical fig leaf.
Aunty, I think I could spend the rest of the day here.
Obama is mishandling this as he has mishandled the most of his term. It was frightening to me how easily he "pooh-poohed" O'Reilly's questions on the MB yesterday in the pre SB interview. It's one thing dance around a question and give an indirect answer as politicians do, but to dismiss the MB with a waive of the hand was very scary to me.
The price of oil could very easily rise though I'm interested to know what the US has in its plans to keep the Suez open (military option). I wrote that this is Iran circa 1977 and the more it progress, the more I'm reminded of it but THIS TIME nuclear arms are involved.
Has there ever been a more absent Sec of State than Clinton? This position is arguably more important than the VP and she is all but a ghost.
Also interesting is how easy a pass Obama and Biden are getting for messing this up. Obama'sinternational upbringing" was supposed to be a huge advantage on the world stage and Bided is a former chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee yet both have show all the acumen of men who have never left their neighborhoods.
This should be the ONLY story on the front page of every paper in the country. Abu Grahb received more in depth reporting than this.
Sorry, Aunty, wasn't trying to be a "stickler" for facts but it's interesting to note that both the circumcision of males and female babies were started because of religious reasons and somehow that morphed into a medical reason. Funny how we blindly accept some things and others we are outraged by. (I also understand that female circumcision is performed on girls that are young teens, NOT babies like the male)
It will be interesting to see what actually pans out in Egypt in the coming months.
And by the way, I did read through the entire post. I notice that many people that regularly comment on your posts go off topic and politicize. I did not. : )
I think Tony Blair might be calling this one. I agree with him when he says there is a mountain of evidence of an extremely well organized muslim brotherhood agenda worldwide.
Why now did these riots start?
Hunger could be the answer but there is plenty of history which highlights the "breed discontent to effect change" format. This seems to me like a 'staged' not a spontaneous event. If so why was it staged and who gains? If what changes is democracy for muslim rule we have an answer. If what changes is the balance of world power, we have a different answer.
Wheat for oil? Maybe. Don't we need oil to run the farm equipment to grow the wheat? Chicken and egg if the price of oil is driving up the costs of food.
Madeline Albright, Condi Rice, Hillary .... would ANY muslim leader take seriously the idea of negotiating with a woman????? No way. The choices of women as Secretary of State were deliberate.
The question is why and to what purpose? Which gets me back to the "staging". Was it us?????
In another segment of this never ending circle of confusion I look at the questions of why now? is it staged? for what gain? by whom? To what end?
Then I see a muslim region which has an opportunity to consolidate as allies with the removal of friendship of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Turkey with the
"Christians/Westerners".
Why now?
Because China is on track to be the largest world power financially, militarily, technologically and in population.
America appears weak on every front and if all American allies in the ME are eliminated while Ohorror is in office and it coincides with the American exit from Iraq then WHO gets the prize?
WHAT will be the bargaining chip with China?
Black gold.
The question is this.
Are they staging the battle for greed, power or religion? I think it is power and greed by the religious evil.
Milk River,
well, that'd be jes' fine--stay long as ya like.
Yore points is spot on. Obama downplays Muslim Brotherhood at the peril of all--including Egyptians. He is either ill informed or an idiot to underestimate this threat.
Discussion of Madam Sec State puts mah blood pressure at risk. Repugnant woman.
I am uncertain whar' the Suez an' oil will be in a few months--but am certain that China is part of the equation. I worry that Egypt is like pullin' a thread--no tellin whar' the unravelin' will end. AN' I think China is waitin' to exploit this--more on China below.
La DivaC,
well, Puddin' the dern docs often is off base--I mean, cawfee used to be a no-no. Now it's an antioxidant! AN' thanky fer readin' the whole post! Thas' important. But doan take no offense, please, if some folks politicize their comment--thas' what the Back Porch is fer--People can let it rip (as long as ya doan use foul language)
Fishy?
Well goodness, ya did let it rip, din't ya? Fer once, Tony (hypocrite) Blair may be tellin' it true--cause he is SCARED.
ON China-- yep. In am old Back Porch post, Aunty mentioned how the real reason we went to Iraq was to plop ourselves in the middle of the Middle East like a spider in the oil web--to make dang sure China din't git to be the spider.
China had been gittin' cozy wif' ole Saddam, who were a charmer, ya know. Iraq is perched on 110 billion barrels of the sticky stuff--the world's second largest known reserves. China is /will be a voracious sucker of oil an that explains her nuzzlin' up to Nigeria, Venezuela.
The exchange is the "resource-for-infrastructure" loan system, that China bludgeons second world countries wif': "gimmie yore oil an' we'll build yore roads, hydroelectric dam, an hospitals"
As fer the wheat/ oil equation? heh. Well, the prices may rise even more--China's An'Hui province has had a wheat killin' drought.
Interestin' is that the oil /gold ratio is not high compared to the fifty year chart--in fact, may be
slightly less than the average.
An' Fishy? I does think the Egypt thang wuz staged==rebellions take money an' organization.Jes' sayin'...
Fishy has left some good food for thought. Ultimately, however, there is no way we the people can ever know what really goes on behind the scenes involving world powers. What is being bargained for, manipulated. How we are pawns in it all.
Which is why I believe we need to get back to a limited and isolationist government whose foreign policy is based on simple economics: We'll trade with anyone who means us no harm and pull our resources from those that do. Focus on what needs to be done here at home (with an emphasis on leaving the people alone to craft our own way in life—I have no belief WHATSOEVER that the government in any way shape or form can ensure wealth, health, or happiness).
So where does that leave us when the yippie skippy jihadists start crawling across the world like mercury? Does it leave us turning a blind eye to their terrors or does it leave us with enough power to censure and sway wielding economic weaponry? I don't know. All I know is, what we're doing NOW isn't helping, either. We have made no progress against the evils of Islam whatsoever and we're worse off for the efforts we have made.
Time to take our toys, get out of the sandbox, go home for dinner, get a good night's sleep, and start over in the morning with a new president and a new approach.
@ Moi,
The Fishy's have been on the isolationist page for several years now. I know there are those saying the nations are too entwined to have separation now but I think we still have a shot if we take it soon.
When Ohorror announced his bologna about the need to cut domestic spending I was thrashing around the Kitchen like some demented dervish yelling, " No! No!, No! We first cut every dern mil of foreign aid for every reason, cause and country!".
It is beyond idiocy to allow our government to indebt our kids to China for AfricaAide. I think it is TREASON to orchestrate the fiscal instability of your country.
Back to Egypt ... has not the USA known and turned a blind eye to Mubaraks tens of billions of dollars of greed stolen from his people? Did I read somewhere Mubarak owns more real estate on Rodeo Drive , etc than any other source? Did WE do this? Yeah, we did, we called it diplomacy. I call it something else.
I think it is TREASON to orchestrate the fiscal instability of your country.
You got it, grrrrrrl.
And we have for way too long allowed Mubarak and others of his ilk to pass go and collect $200. Time to stop.
@Fishy,
Great comment on ending foreign aid. That money NEVER sees those for whome it was intended. To make matters worse, the IMF and World Bank compound the problem by forgiving debt and then asking for more money.
MRM,
like Fishy, I'se opposed to USAID no more AID indeed, but... the IMF, and World Bank are even wors. Why? Because more overtly and wif' more force, they require nations to change culture in order to git the $$/
forgiveness--the % of abortions was to tied to the rate of debt decline. Ain't that dandy?
@Diva - I had my kids circumcised as was I (too much info?) and being a guy in the locker room talking to other guys, I'll tell you it can be a hygiene issue. 'nuff said.
Some of my random thoughts on Egypt:
1. There is no way the US loses control of the Suez Canal. That's our Navy link between the Med and the Gulf. I think anyone that stands in the way of that gets squashed. Same deal with the Egyptian air bases.
2. I'd like to see the US stop giving Egypt $2B a year because they do have money, but the corruption sees that that money never gets to the people. Mubrak is said to be worht $40B. Where did that come from? The US needs to make sure Egypt's military can defend the canal and the bases.
3. Mubarak is a dictator and all of them fall eventually. Especially hungry, unemployed people. Had he been a little more generous with his billions, maybe you don't have this situation.
4. Another user of wheat and reason for high prices are biofuels. Turning all of our food into gas is the wrong way to go. That part of the US clean energy program is just wrong. It's becoming a perfect storm because of this is coupled with the increased food demand of China.
5. Fuel prices are going up now because more ME countries are processing diesel instead of gas. The reason being China again. They are starting to build a lot of infrastructure that requires diesel for machines and power.
Bottom line, I don't think the US lets a US-unfriendly regime come to power. And I think most of ME countries will be good with that. Especially the Gulf countries because they don't want to lose access to the Suez Canal either.
BUZZK
Amen, sir. Every point is cogent.
I note that thar' wuz a terrorist attack on an Egyptian natural gas pipeline in the Sinai a few days ago--the pipeline thas' part of the 2 year old contract for a 15 years of gas to Israel from Egypt.
Doan'cha jes' wish ya could heah what them Saud boyz is sayin' in private about this thang? Heh.
On food prices--am moving into code orange on this. China and Russia have had droughts. The idiocy of turning food into fuel will be in the books someday alongside of flat earth jokes.
Grrrr!
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